/ April 17, 2008 01:12 PM
Ahh the joys of the uninformed and the do nothings. I received this comment today on my post on Bill Graham's 10 point plan to end illegal immigration in North Carolina if he is elected governor. Reader "Madonna" doesn't much like my opinion and claims that there is no solution to illegal immigration. I have decided to post it below and respond because all of her arguments seem to be quite common by many in the pro illegal alien crowd.
I post the comment below for your enjoyment as I will take it to task point by point.
I would like to take this time to completely disagree with Digger and his/her previous respondents. In doing so, I would like to point out specific areas of the original blog itself that I disagree with and why.
This is fine. Nothing wrong with disagreeing and nothing wrong with stating your opinion, but what have you based your conclusions and opinion on? Let us take a look.
To start off, the whole point of this argument is that North Carolina is over-populated with illegal immigrants. Digger writes that there are over 400,000 illegal immigrants within that state. But really, is there any way to ever really know how many illegal “aliens” there are? I mean, as much as the United States tries to keep these foreigners out, they just keep finding more and more ways to get in, no matter how difficult Americans make it for them to live here.
You're right! There is no true way to know because laws have been passed to hide the truth. The Congress has made it so that no school needs to ask applicants legal status, hospitals don't ask legal status and government services don't ask legal status. These laws were put in place because they don't want the truth to be known. The owners and politicians benefit off of the illegality through their companies and companies that donate to their campaigns.
Thus the taxpayers are forced to foot the bill for this "hidden community" so that they can be exploited by unscrupulous businesses, many of which are tied to the leaders who pass the laws with a wink and a nod. And before you try to propose that I am anti-business, I'm far from it. I'm pro-business as long as it is legal.
The thing I doubt Bill Graham and his supporters understand, is that, if immigrants didn’t wish to leave their old lives behind so badly, they wouldn’t be continuously putting themselves in such grave danger to get to America. No matter what the American government tries to do to deport these people, nothing can really compare to their old lives. They led such terrible lives, and most of the time, America is a big part of why their countries are as corrupt as they are.
Ahh the anti-American line spouted over and over. Yes, it has nothing to do with the corrupt politicians in countries like Mexico that continue to repress and oppress their people. It is always the fault of America and Americans. To people like "Madonna" there is no ill in this world that is not caused by America. It is never the personal responsibility of the residents of a country that do not change their government that is keeping them down. This goes for Americans too. We are to blame for the state our country is in, little by little though people are demanding that actions be taken.
America promotes itself as being “the land of the free,” and we pride ourself on being very opened and everyone here can have freedom of speech, freedom of this, freedom of that. We advertise America as if it’s an available product, and the second we’ve hooked an audience we try to find ways to get rid of them and then put all the blame on them.
There are plenty of legal ways to come to this country. Millions come here legally every year. America is not a product. If anything America has portrayed itself as an ideal that other countries can follow. Whether you agree with that assessment or not it is the truth. The problem is that people don't see themselves as changing their countries to adopt the things they like about America in their homeland, they'd rather just hop a border and take the easy way out.
To track back, Bill Graham’s idea of requiring ID cards to end voter fraud, ending bilingual education in schools, sanctioning employers who hire illegal immigrants, and make English the state official language and outlaw sanctuary cities in the state won’t do as much as he thinks it might.
How about we give it a try and see if it works since it has never been tried before? Your idea apparently is to do nothing. Which will allow the problem to become even more increasing.
If there has been an “invasion” of illegal immigrants in North Carolina, then there are things in North Carolina worthy enough for foreigners to take that risk. Yes, ID cards will make life even more difficult for these human beings just trying to make better lives for themselves and their families, but they will not completely end this huge dilemma. The truth is, this dilemma probably has no solution because it’s a problem based on hypocrisy. The “true Americans” of the United States of America, are in fact illegal immigrants themselves.
I will not comment on this statement as I'm sure anyone who reads this can come to their own conclusions. Two statements though... Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and Gadsden Purchase.
Our forefathers, who wrote the Declaration of Independence and those before them, illegally came to the territory now known as the United States of America. If the Indian tribes alive then were alive today, I bet you they would tell you our forefathers were unwanted and they didn’t pass the equivalent of a literacy test back then or need ID cards. They just barged right in demanding only the best from everyone.
And here is where your argument totally falls apart. By your logic, our forefathers came here illegally and were not deported. What happened? The original inhabitants are gone! Turning that logic around shows your true nature in your comments. You would like the illegal aliens coming here today to not be deported and allowed to remain here. In doing so you basically are stating that you would like history to repeat itself and for the current inhabitants - United States Citizens - to lose their country. You can't argue against that logic because your statements above clearly point out that you see Americans currently here as illegals and that it is quite fine that they be routed out of this country.
This is not even close to what the illegal immigrants of today are doing. At least they respect the fact that they will not have the best jobs with the best wages in a Country that is not of their origin. These people are even patriotic and share American ideals.
I beg to differ. The current wave of illegal aliens are setting up communities that actively discourage assimilation. They promote not integrating with this country and to only think of their home countries first. They plot boycotts of businesses that do not put up bilingual signage or demand signage only in Spanish. In the past people bent to fit into America now people are demanding that America bend to fit what they want even at the expense of all others. That is not what America is about.
These people are not waving American flags in our streets. They see us as a bank and that is all. They do not want to fit in. They believe that freedom in this country is the freedom to do whatever they want, whether it be getting blasted and driving around our streets or turning their music up as loud as possible. When confronted they play the "woe is me" card or the "race card" and everyone is supposed to back down and feel sorry for them.
There is a 28 page report called the Dark Side of Illegal Immigration
that you can go read to see how patriotic this current wave of illegal aliens are. From the crime
to the disease
to the driving down of wages
and balkanization of America
it is documented with sources.
Takao Ozawa once talked about how his race shouldn’t matter if his ideas were American, and because of that he should be eligible for American citizenship.
This issue is not about race. Your assertion for pointing out the above is that people like Bill Graham - and myself for that matter - want to end the current citizenship requirements and base it on race. You know that is not true, but you make statements like the above to slant it that way to anyone who should read your comment. As a matter of fact I believe that you are hoping they take that understanding when they read it even though you cannot back up your claims so that you can paint us as racists and xenophobes.
There are many people roaming America who have no patriotic values, and obviously I’m not telling you to throw out American non-believers, but it’s not like that’s never happened before. Think back to the Cold War when “American Communists” were put in jail. Or back to World War II when America put all the Japanese Americans into concentration camps.
You pick extreme examples. That was a time of war and believe it or not there really were Japanese spies here during World War II who put the country at risk and were actively plotting and sabotaging. As for "concentration camps" - please! Give me a break these people were not worked as slave labor with no food until they died. I admit that they unjustly had their properties confiscated and that was a mistake. But I'm guessing that you would put that blame squarely on my shoulders and every other American who wasn't even born during that period, for that is the want of your ilk.
The truth is nobody is calling for illegal aliens to be rounded up into concentration camps and therefore your argument above is a straw man that is not even based on the current proposals or anyone's beliefs.
Americans have this bad habit of arbitrarily labeling people and setting extreme limits on what is wrong and what is right. Why deport people who share the same values as you just because they weren’t born here or couldn’t pass a citizenship test that more than half the people in America couldn’t pass? To run for Governor of a state which used to be populated only with immigrants would make you, Bill Graham, a hypocrite to your state and unworthy of being governor.
The fact is that there are 100's of millions in this world with "American beliefs" or the beliefs of freedoms we have here. We simply cannot take them all in because they live in oppressive countries with corrupt governments. Take a few minutes and watch the second video at this entry entitled Immigration Gumballs. It explains why we simply can't absorb all of the peoples of the world in as easy a manner as possible. All we as a country can do is encourage people to change their countries and give them the opportunity to do so through education.
Truly, people like "Madonna" will not read any of my points above. my links above or watch the video and actually think about them in a logical manner, because they already have their mind made up that Americans here right now are illegal. That we should not have a country. That we should allow anyone the freedom to come here who wants to, without checking who they are or their intentions.
To most Americans reading this opinions like those stated above by "Madonna" are extremist and on the fringe, but I disagree. Her opinion is held by millions in Mexico where they teach that portions of America were stolen from them and that they have the right to take it back. They are held by millions around the world that America is the reason they are oppressed by their government.
"Madonna" and people with her beliefs want us to do nothing so that their goals can move forward. So that we can be weakened and lose our country and way of life.
I for one am not going to back down and allow that to happen. How about you?
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Posted by Digger on April 17, 2008 01:12 PM (Permalink)
Apparently "Madonna" doesn't live in North Carolina, or if she does, she's willfully blind. I do, and i think that "invasion" and "overrun" are too mild terms to describe the problems here. First, the schools in my area are increasingly crowded and unsafe. There is rampant gang activity at the local high schools, up to and including fights and intimidation, along with classrooms where the teachers are unable to teach because they spend too much class time trying to maintain some semblance of discipline. The hispanic kids pretend not to understand english, and either slow or completely stop the class for everyone. Second, the infrastructure costs for the county and public services have skyrocketed. The local hospitals are being crushed under ever-increasing unreimbursed medical charges, and trying to be seen as a patient requires a long wait, as the uninsured crowd emergency rooms and public health services. I won't even go into the businesses who have changed their signage to a combination of english and spanish, or even worse, all spanish. In fact, one of the local Wal-Marts makes their announcements in spanish. While I sincerely doubt that any American will deny that people come here looking for a better life, I also think that most of us resent the attitude of entitlement, the demand for more and more concessions on our part, the societal costs and most of all, the financial burden being placed on taxpayers to provide for people who have no respect for our laws or our customs. However, as you say, the bleeding-hearts and traitors to our country don't care about the logic of this, they only want to further their own agendas.
Posted by: Candy on April 17, 2008 04:57 PM
Nice work Digger. We need more Bill Grahams out there.
Posted by: JJ on April 17, 2008 05:18 PM
Digger...your points have buried her!...no contest here! The only thing I would add to her comments "Think back to the Cold War when “American Communists” were put in jail." is that...damn well, you betcha!...glad everyone of those commies were put in jail and don't understand why we don't chase those commies down in the U.S. right now? Why has is become fashionable to be a communist? I can remember when it wasn't!
Posted by: Merv on April 17, 2008 05:54 PM
This is so amazing - the internet, the ipod, the blog, etc age have spawned this kind of idiotic movement of opinions (easy and fast to publish and disseminate) that simply because they have an opinion it is by virtue of the big relativist rule, my truth and your truth are equivalent, valid. The rising intellectual decripitude is frightening. We are definitely on a fast track 180 degrees tearing away from enlightenment.
Posted by: alexl on April 17, 2008 05:57 PM
The one question no one in the pro illegal open borders crowd never wants to answer is: What should the population of the USA be? 400 million, 500 million, perhaps 3/4 of a billion? It is easy and simplistic to think we as a country can solve all the world's problems by allowing any and everyone to come here. All one has to do is to visit some of these poor countries and see that the importation of uneducated poor peasants will never work to improve anything in their home countries. As to the native Americans that were here first. It wasn't as if they didn't try to protect their way of life, their land or culture. They did try and were overwhelmed by numbers, disease and superior weapons. Should we not do more to repel this unarmed invasion of our country, the same fate awaits us.
Posted by: Brad on April 17, 2008 10:46 PM
To Candy: Good for you for boycotting companies that advertise in Spanish in the US! But, please, make sure you let them know you are doing so. Money talks -- if they know they're ticking off more Americans (legal) who expect to see English, which should be the official language in this country, they might change their tune. The only reason any of these politicians are "pro illegals", be it Dem's or Republican's, is because they're all jockeying for the Hispanic vote and that's pathetic. Please remember these pol's and vote them out of office! The best thing we can all do now is demanding our STATE legislators pass tough laws. The federal gov't isn't going to do it. Many states have recently passed tough laws: RI, GA, Utah, etc. If all the states pass laws, there will no place to work, live, drive, BE and they will self deport. It's already happening. Find your elected officials at: www.vote-smart.org and check www.alipac.us -- click on Action and Activists campaign for each state. I often make calls for other states. I live in FL and we have six bills in the House that the pro illegal Speaker of the House, Marco Rubio (R-Miami) is just allowing to die. Rubio's planning a run for Mayor of Miami soon...see the connection? Floridians need people to make phone calls to key pol's at the state house. Check out on YouTube: Florida Immigration Enforcement Update by SoFlaPatriot. Towards the end of the video it gives 7-8 policians to call and ask them to vote on the bills. Please help us. They don't usually ask your name or where you're calling from anyway. They are keeping a tally of the calls -- support/oppose the bills. They need to have their phones ringing off the hook! Thank you.
Posted by: April on April 18, 2008 09:14 AM
"That was a time of war and believe it or not there really were Japanese spies here during World War II who put the country at risk and were actively plotting and sabotaging. As for "concentration camps" - please!"
Um, weren't there German and Italian spies here too? Why didn't we lock up folks of German and Italian ancestry? Sorry, but you look kind of silly on this point (and by "kind of" I mean "very" and by "silly" I mean "stupid"). The internment of Japanese-Americans was WRONG and INEXCUSEABLE. I really wonder how someone can think that action was justified, especially sixty years later when the heroic acts of so many of those, who'd been betrayed by their country, and yet put on a uniform and picked up a rifle and went to war, proved their loyalty once and for all (or, so you'd think). Guilt by association of the worst kind. It's very disappointing that you believe that action was justified.
And, FYI, those camps were, in fact, referred to as "concentration camps" by folks like FDR, Harry S. Truman, and Dwight Eisenhower. So stop playing like she's playing some dirty underhanded card: Eisenhower called 'em 'concentration camps', but Madonna can't?
Posted by: Malnurtured Snay on April 18, 2008 08:32 PM
These people only want to make life better for their families? So do burglars and the mafia.
"...if immigrants didn’t wish to leave their old lives behind so badly, they wouldn’t be continuously putting themselves in such grave danger to get to America." Madonna lost track of the issue; it's not immigrants, it's illegal aliens. To call an illegal alien an immigrant is like calling a burglar a houseguest. Hey, how about giving the burglar a path to room mate status?
There is a solution; deportation. The problem is a lack of will to employ the solution due to traitors such as Madonna.
Deportation is not enough. We must employ jail sentences (I recommend three months for the first offense) to stop them from coming right back (even the open borders crowd admits this as they use it in their arguments as to why deportation won't work).
Posted by: ken pope on April 19, 2008 10:50 AM
Great coverage as always. Folks in NC can tell you the standard of living is changing for the worse. About ten years ago, we started hearing stories about businesses putting up billboards down in mexico, advertising jobs. NC is now on a fast path to the declines we see in California. Overcrowded schools with too many ESL students. Drunk driving illegals killing young children and adults. Emergency rooms overwhelmed. In general, people in NC have a very kind nature. Its time to stand up and do something. Bill Graham has a very good plan and many in this state like it!
Posted by: bill on April 19, 2008 04:40 PM
I have always had a problem with "ESL." If one is coming here to assimilate it should be "EPL." (english as the primary language)
Posted by: ken pope on April 19, 2008 11:06 PM
It' not called "ESL", English as a Second Language,to imply that English should not be the primary language of the learner. It's called "ESL" to indicate that the learner is not a native English speaker and that they are learning English as an aquired language while living in a culture that is primarily English speaking. ESL instructional methods are different from regular English instructional methods for native English speakers and they also differ from "EFL" or English as a Foreign Language methods. Generally, ESL methods focus on teaching English in a utilitarian and practical way, e.g. focusing on vocabulary that would be used at work, to apply for a job, buying groceries, etc. Grammar is taught in the context of how it can be used in real-life situations. Generally, EFL methods would be used when one is teaching English in a non-English speaking country where the people learning English would most likely use English to travel as a tourist to an English speaking country or might use English to read technical journals in their field of study. English for native speakers, also known as English Language Arts, is what most people in the USA who are native speakers of English would take. The assumption is that as native speakers, they don't necessarily require specialized vocabularies for practical, day-to-day situations, so there is no focus on that. Instead, English is taught with the point of refining the native speaker's knowledge of the language by teaching abstract vocabulary and more in-depth study of grammar from the point of view of the native speaker almost always using US and English literature as the primary models for written and oral language.
Posted by: rational skeptic on April 21, 2008 01:45 PM
I want "English as the Primary Language" taught.
Posted by: ken pope on April 21, 2008 10:38 PM
I would like to start off by telling you to back off. You can disagree with me just as I have disagreed with you, but do not presume to stereotype me and offend me by saying “Truly, people like ‘Madonna’ will not read any of my points above. my links above or watch the video and actually think about them in a logical manner, because they already have their mind made up that Americans here right now are illegal. That we should not have a country. That we should allow anyone the freedom to come here who wants to, without checking who they are or their intentions.”
If I took the time out of my life to post on your blog, you should sleep well at night knowing that I will in fact pay attention to your thorough response. Keep in mind Digger, you do not know me. In fact you do not know most of the people you stereotype.
For instance, you claim that illegal immigrants contribute to and increase crime rates. Well Digger, wrong again. “Since 1994, violent crime in the United States has declined 34 percent, and property crime has fallen 26 percent. At the same time, the illegal immigrant population has doubled to around 12 million.” Why don’t you take the time to go look at a website of mine now. http://www.azstarnet.com/news/171109.
You also mention that illegal immigrants do not pay taxes and that Americans should not “forced to foot the bill for this hidden community.’ ” Illegal immigrants do in fact pay taxes, Digger! They pay property taxes and sales tax. America has been hearing this cry from taxpayers for over 100 years. Everyone’s had a grandparent who hasn’t paid taxes or who didn’t speak English or who demanded free social services, and the country has survived, even thrived.
Digger, I’m just curious, what are you afraid of? If you had real American values like the real American values expressed on the Statue of Liberty; you’d welcome immigrants.
“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
This poem is a “beacon to the world.” It was written by Emma Lazarus, an immigrant, who felt so passionately about America and all the treasures it gave to her that she decided to write a poem. The poem was meant to capture the meaning of America for the millions of immigrants in search of freedom here.
Between 1820 and 1920 around 34 million people’s migrated to the United States. Residents here weren’t too fond of them. They were dirty, they didn’t speak English, but they stayed anyway. Now fast forward two generations and we have you and me, Digger.
It’s ironic that a country built by Immigrants wants to shut the door on today’s immigrants. Digger, you know very well that American businesses aren’t taking advantage of illegal immigrants like you said they were. They aren’t allowed to hire them. Immigrants must have an I9 form making the corporations fully aware of their immigration status and so the “unscrupulous businesses” can’t exploit them. Also, if America was being inundated by illegal immigrants, then you’d think our unemployment rate wouldn’t be the lowest it has been in years So Digger, make sure to give me a call when you lose your job to an illegal alien because you know just as well as everyone else that they only take the lowest paying jobs that Americans won’t do and they work for less than Americans. They aren’t complaining about it, so neither should you.
I have an idea, how about you ask Bill Graham who mows his lawn every week. It’s probably the same people who mow Mitt Romney’s lawn: illegal aliens from Guatemala.
I find it to be extremely ironic that narrow minded Republicans like you want to build walls to keep people out while your hero, Ronald Reagan, demanded that the Soviet Union tear down the Berlin Wall. He knew that people had the human right to come and go as they pleased.
Oh and P.S.
I heard Bill Graham’s not doing so well in the North Carolina polls. Oh well, BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME!
Posted by: Madonna on April 27, 2008 09:32 PM
I would like to start off by telling you to back off.
I will never back off! This is my country and I WILL FIGHT FOR IT.
Roll over if you like, but your continued comments lead me to believe you are not an American, but a shill working for the governments of those invading our country.
All of your "points" made above have been covered with real facts in previous articles of mine over the past 5+ years. It's all freely available and I will not waste my time on rehashing it for you alone as I have other important items to discuss.
There is a search feature on the site as well as full sitemap to all of my articles so go read them.
"I lift my lamp beside the golden door"
There's a door there for a reason. Use it. It doesn't say "I life my lamp for all to jump the border and leech off of the rest of Americans".
As for your assertion that the current immigration situation is the same as the past go watch this video comparing traditional immigration to immigration of today:
Another strawman argument from the supporters of illegal immigration.
And I mow my own lawn thank you very much.
It’s ironic that a country built by Immigrants wants to shut the door on today’s immigrants.
First of all it's illegal aliens, not immigrants we are going to keep out. This country allows more than 2 million people a year to come here legally. More than all other nations combined. So your argument that we are an anti-immigrant country is full of BS.
I find it to be extremely ironic that narrow minded Republicans like you want to build walls to keep people out while your hero, Ronald Reagan, demanded that the Soviet Union tear down the Berlin Wall. He knew that people had the human right to come and go as they pleased.
I am an Independent. Thanks for telling us what Ronald Reagan thought. I believe he is rolling in his grave after seeing the '86 amnesty pass and none of the enforcement provisions being enforced and people like you calling for them not to be enforced.
The Berlin wall comparison is another strawman argument. Those people were held in that country against their will by the wall. Our fence is to keep people out of our country not to keep people in under oppression.
In the end illegal aliens can always leave, nobody is going to stop them.
Posted by: Digger on April 28, 2008 07:09 PM
The borders of our country were bought and paid for with blood and bullets. If we defended these borders with the same blood and bullets. The illegal crossings into the U.S. would drop overnight one way or the other.
Posted by: Hammar on May 27, 2010 02:13 PM