/ November 24, 2004 02:32 PM
David Anderson over at In Search Of Utopia
has finally gone over the edge and joined the far left in justifying their vicious and hateful attacks on all Republicans
I posted a comment on his entry that includes one of those wacky "Brand Democrat" posters and T-shirts they've been pushing around recently. The item in question stated
If you like good schools, clean air, safe food, equality, respect, free speech, and a secure nation... You just might be a Democrat.
Then there's the little donkey/jackass logo they've been running with.
I posted a comment on his website because I felt that it was totally uncalled for that anyone who claims to want a united America wouldn't keep trying to demonize more than half the country as irresponsible dumbasses who don't want any of these things. Here was my response
Digger: Yeah, because we all know us evil, hating Republicans don't want ANY of that. Only Democrats want those things.
This brand Democrat thing started off as a decent venture, with some quotes from noteable Democrats of the past. Now it's just a hate spewing divisive campaign that is trying to demonize Republicans. I would have no respect for anyone wearing any of this shit and I'm surprised you would follow along with this David.
One day the Dems will wake up and realize they should be discussing their good accomplishments rather than constantly trying to make the Republicans look like some sort of evil force.
Just remember there were more people that voted for Bush and Republicans and were willing to do so. By telling these same people they are hate filled ingrates who want mass polution, the worst education for their kids, infected food and no freedom of speech or semblance of respecting others you are only alienating yourselves further and reinforcing beliefs that you're just a bunch of extremist wackos that have nothing in common with the mainstream of America.
Taking a cue from Oliver Willis is the most ridiculous thing you could do, since he is in no way representative of what I think the majority of your party -- or the country -- believes.
I thought it pointed out very well that they are demonizing all Republicans. Well he's has written up a whole entry responding to my comment entitled "Answering Digger" in which he attempts to meet my comment head-on and twist the hateful meaning of this whole Brand Democrat thing from it's hateful and bashing intent into something that is valid and productive.
Here below is his response and my rebuttal.
Digger: Yeah, because we all know us evil, hating Republicans don't want ANY of that. Only Democrats want those things.
David: I never said that, and I don't think Oliver did either. What he was referring to is record, and it is clear that the Bush admistration does not have a good record on clean air, water or any of a range of ecological issues. It is also clear by RECORD, that the "Leave no Child Behind," act has become a joke, and that our education system is in serious need of mending, while the President concentrates on Tax cuts and failing war in Iraq.
So, all Republicans
are the target for hatred because someone doesn't like Bush's policies? Well here's a shocker for ya, no all Republicans
agree with Bush either. We're not all a bunch of mindless zombies who follow behind Bush. I personally hate his immigration and outsourcing policies, but I'll move on.
Digger: This brand Democrat thing started off as a decent venture, with some quotes from noteable Democrats of the past. Now it's just a hate spewing divisive campaign that is trying to demonize Republicans. I would have no respect for anyone wearing any of this shit and I'm surprised you would follow along with this David.
David: Really... Well you shouldnt be. I recognize you as a pretty decent figure Digger, one I respect. And I rarely see such comments as Moonbat from your site. But I would like to know when was the last time you lectured a Right Wing Blogger for demonizing Lefties. Please point me to a link, or don't bother with these kinds of comments, becuase they come off as highly disengenious. You might want to start HERE! Or Here.
Why should I go over there and condemn others for making a mockery of something that is hate filled? They are making fun of your Brand Democrat
stuff because it is so far off in la-la land now that it is ripe for satire. If it would have stuck to JFK quotes and other productive comments then I doubt seriously if it would have been harangued in such a way.
Digger: One day the Dems will wake up and realize they should be discussing their good accomplishments rather than constantly trying to make the Republicans look like some sort of evil force.
David: Ah, one I agree with, and I think that is what Oliver is really trying to do. That it in some cases makes Republicans look bad is more of an issue for the Republicans than one for Oliver's approach. Least that is my opinion.
This is not what Oliver is trying to do, straight form his site
Brand ideas to keep in mind: this is a pro-Democrat ad campaign, which means that the goal is to tout a positive feature of the Democratic party. Now, you can do that by pointing out a shortcoming of the GOP, but without slamming them explicitly.
This is obviously a noble gesture that quickly deteriorated. If you're going to point out positives and shortcomings in the other party why is it instantly turned into a "Hate Bush" agenda and not specific items? It is all about the crying over the loss of the election once again.
Digger: Just remember there were more people that voted for Bush and Republicans and were willing to do so. By telling these same people they are hate filled ingrates who want mass polution, the worst education for their kids, infected food and no freedom of speech or semblance of respecting others you are only alienating yourselves further and reinforcing beliefs that you're just a bunch of extremist wackos that have nothing in common with the mainstream of America.
David: Well, that one is arguable isnt it. I don't think ANYONE with a logical mind could argue that Bush's vote count indicates that everyone who voted for him would destroy wildlife refuges, turn over our national forrest to the Lumber Industry, or would vote for the Patriot Act as it now stands. So I don't think Oliver or anyone else is saying that. I will leave it to him to elaborate. But what I believe is that the message is what democrats stand for, not what Republicans don't.
All you have to do is read Olivers site over the past few months to see his obvious stance and objectives. Trying to say Oliver is a very thoughtful and conscientious objector is ridiculous. Just read his tagline "A left wing bomb thrower". Trying to paint Oliver as nice and thoughtful is like saying Ann Coulter is polite when she discusses the Democrats.
Digger: Taking a cue from Oliver Willis is the most ridiculous thing you could do, since he is in no way representative of what I think the majority of your party -- or the country -- believes.
David: I don't think you can speak for my party, any more than I can speak for yours. As for taking cues from Oliver. I don't take cues from anyone. Nor do I always agree with Oliver. In this case I think he has a great idea, and based on the sales he is getting, and the support arround the left Blogsphere, I would say he has hit on something pretty damned special. He is also a good friend, and despite all the hatred I have seen on the Right, I rarely see as much left venom directed at a specific blog as I do from the right directed at Oliver.
Sales of items is in no way a sign of something being productive. A lot of people buy fart spray as well. It is quite obvious your anger is directed at Bush, but you seem to lump all Republicans
in with him every chance you get. Bush wil be gone in 4 years, get over your hatred of him and concentrate on who the left is going to hate next time around.
David goes on to rant about how all Republicans hate the left and all of their ideas. He rants on about how the Iraq invasion was all about lies and Halliburton war profiteering and how all Republicans condemn all left wingers. I'm not going to comment on those rants though, because they are so obviously off the mark they don't deserve commenting on.
I always looked at David as a centrist Democrat, but his condemning of all Republicans for everything clearly shows that he doesn't value contributions of any Republicans for anything.
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Posted by Digger on November 24, 2004 02:32 PM (Permalink)
Digger that is bullshit and you know it. I have never condemned ALL Republicans for anything, and I resent you putting words in my mouth. This is what I said:
"What is it about Right Wingers that drives you to always insist on Lefties condemning people becuase they don't agree with YOU? I don't get it. II am still waiting to hear a condemnation of the lies that led to us being in Iraq. I am still waiting to hear a condemnation of Halliburton's war profiteering. I am still waiting to hear a condemnation for some of the ridiculously ODIOUS comments I have seen on some Right Wing Blogs. So when I see you guys start condemning people for calling ALL Left Wingers Asshats and Moonbats, and some terms that are even worse, I will get back to ya! Sound like a deal?"
And I stand by it. If you want to hate me or compare me with Oliver, that is your perogative, but I have never and WILL never advocate hate. Where were you after the election when the Commissar and I were calling for civility of tone? This is the biggest crock I have ever seen.
I have and will continue to call for civility in discussion, but I will not do so at the loss of my own right to have an opinion. You have not questioned anything I said about the ADMINISTRATION above. The Ecology of our country is important to some on both sides of the aisle. And Bush has sold it out.
Is this the way its going to be for the next four years... Every time someone questions an administration policy, we are just crying becuase we lost the election. Bullshit, Group think, idiocy! Sorry, but that is the way I see it.
You are someone I consider a friend, and who I link to daily, whether I agree with you, or not. If you are going to lump me in with your so-called MOONBATS, feel free to do so, but I wont compromise my principals for friendship. I resent and to be honest am angry with your response, not because you dissagree, but becuase you attempt to put words in my mouth, something I have never done with you.
So let me make this CLEAR, very clear. I have not lumped all Republicans or conservatives into one bucket, that is something SOME on the Right do very well, and probably some on the left too, I am not one of them. So dont go there. And if you have a question about what I mean about something, ASK, dont assume. I gave you the respect of answering your post with my opinion, I did not go on a rant accussing you of all the things I dont like about some Right Wingers. If you paid attention, I did the oppossite, which was to give you respect for not being someone who lumps everyone on the left into the same bucket, please give me the same benefit of the doubt!
Posted by: David Anderson on November 24, 2004 03:34 PM
When you see every centrist as hateful, perhaps its time to reexamine your stances. The idea of the campaign is to tout things Democrats value and things that Democrats have done. Feel free to do the same for your party.
Seriously, if you don't see the Republicans have made it party policy to demonize everyone to the left of John McCain as antiAmerican or "hateful", you need to open your eyes.
Your argument seems to boil down to - "How dare those Democrats say what they think about themselves! The nerve! If they just think like us and agree with everything we stand for, we can all get along in harmony!" Sorry if I have to call bullshit on that.
Posted by: Oliver on November 24, 2004 03:35 PM
I don't see centrists as hateful I see those crappy posters and t-shirts as hateful.
You shoulda just stuck to the nice quotes unstead of selling out with hateful rhetoric just to make a buck.
And I'm far from far right-wing.
Posted by: Digger on November 24, 2004 04:22 PM
I just want to know when you are going to answer my question Digger? When was the last time you critiqued someone on the right for being hateful? I would like to see one example where you went to a right wing blog and said. Hey guys, this is not cool calling all Lefties Moonbats. You want to shut me up, show me one EXAMPLE, just one.
Posted by: David Anderson on November 24, 2004 05:57 PM
You're the one who endorsed the posters. If I had endorsed something that was way off base I wouldn't take offense when someone called me on it. Why do I need to defend myself because you endorsed something I found ridiculous and asked you why?
As for me going around to right wing sites spouting off on them, there's a number of occassions when I've confronted others in my party on things I didn't agree with. I don't keep a log of them. WOuld it help if I said FUCK YOU BUSH BECAUSE YOUR IMMIGRATION POLICY SUCKS!!
What do you want me to say?
I don't see you burning the rug to go tell left wingers to shut the fuck up either.
You endorsed it, I said I think it's ridiculous and you seemed to want to dodge the endorsement you had made. Why can't you just admit it is 100% against Bush and get over it rather than hiding behind a cloud that painted all Republicans as against those things?
Posted by: Digger on November 24, 2004 06:13 PM
You should know by now that I am man enough to admit when I am wrong. You should also know I am man enough to criticize anyone I see as being wrong. You go to a Left Wing Blog spouting off about HATE, and how fucking outraged you are, when I challenge you to find ONE, just ONE MAJOR Right wing blog that does not at this very moment have a post that calls Left Wingers idiots and Moonbats, and generalizes. You are being full of shit Digger, and it is I who is calling you on it. Becuase you are not comparing apples to apples. What you are doing is trying to cloud the issue. It is simple, I will spell it out for you REAL SLOW so you get it... YOU called me on supporting a program that YOU Feel calls all Republicans XYZ. You said by supporting it, I call all Republicans XYZ. I have already stated that was not my intention nor my thought process. You seem to feel that if I dont call Oliver a Hate Monger, that I am a Hate Monger. I asked you to do the same thing. Tell me when you have called any of the big Conserva-Blogs on the EXACT same thing, and you want to avoid it. Avoid it all you want, but you painted yourself into a corner on this one and anyone who reads this with an once of objectivity will see it. Every day, every HOUR, the word Moonbat, asshat, idiot, etc. is being used to describe ALL Left wingers, not just the fringe. I have NEVER seen you once say, hey guys that is not cool. You are putting all Dems into the same bucket.
"You're the one who endorsed the posters. If I had endorsed something that was way off base I wouldn't take offense when someone called me on it. Why do I need to defend myself because you endorsed something I found ridiculous and asked you why?"
That comment makes two very WRONG assumptions. 1.) Is that I did not endorse something that was way off base. In fact I believe it 100%. Two, you dont need to defend yourself, you just need to leave the hypocrisy at the door, cause you my friend are going to get called on it EVERY Single time.
Posted by: David Anderson on November 24, 2004 06:31 PM
So your argument remains that had I stuck to quotes and not actual differences between the two parties philosophies (the goal of the campaign), you wouldn't have a problem with it?
Don't you think it would be a little counterintuitive for me to create a pro-Democrat ad campaign that has to be okayed by Republicans? Please.
Posted by: Oliver on November 24, 2004 07:06 PM
You are the kind of person who would read:
"Shintoism values family unity"
and see it as implying that Christianity, Islam and Judiaism do not.
And I think the fact that Oliver's campaign has your panties in a bunch says he's on the right track.
Posted by: Otter on November 25, 2004 02:23 AM
I don't need to justify myself to you. I have done numerous entries that are "pro-Democrat" in the past and shouldn't have to point to specific comments I put on others sites (out of the thousands I have posted, I neither have the time nor the reason to justify myself to either of you). I both applauded the Barack Obama win and called for Clinton to be able to run for a third term (just search my site).
I doubt I could find a "pro-Republican" piece on either of your sites, so just drop the act of trying to make me some sort of totally partisan hack.
I'm an issues guy and don't really give a rats ass much about the candidate or their party as long as they are for my issues. I thought the "brand democrat" posters painted everyone who disagreed too much into the same bucket. If you disagree so be it, it is my opinion and you don't have to agree if you don't want too, but I thought it was alienating and I still do.
Posted by: Digger on November 25, 2004 12:58 PM
Yep You are right you DONT have to justify yourself with me or anyone else, and that is exactly the point. None of us do. I find it extremely hipocritical that you come to my site, criticize Oliver and Myself for being partisan, when as I pointed out I see far worse Daily in the Conservative Blogsphere. Dont play Stupid Digger, I know you too well. You know what I am talking about. I am talking about being a hypocrit when you take something and interpret it as an attack on Republicans, when as I said, and you continue to Ignore, At this moment you can pick a Big Republican Blog at random and you WILL find a post Gauranteed that calles Lefties and Democrats Asshats, Moonbats, etc. I never claimed my site was Pro Republican, it isnt, and it never will be. So my issue with you was and is, not that you dissagreed with me. People do it every day on my Blog and I delete nothing. My issue is the hypocrisy of you condemning a Liberal Blog for being Liberal and from promoting the Democratic Parties record, while you have people spewing insults all over the conservative blogsphere.
What I find alienating and disgusting is your tendency to try and preach to one part of the choir, while ignoring the rest of it, and then trying to tell me who I should take cues from. There are some people who consider me a traitor for linking to you as a conservative. No one tells me who my friends should be, who I should link or what I should think. So if you want credibility as a person of ballance spread your contempt for hate arround buddy, otherwise, it is being a partisan, and I will call you on it every time.
Posted by: David Anderson on November 25, 2004 04:45 PM
You just don't get it do you? Why should I go bitch at someone who is not directly offending me? Am I Superman? I'm supposed to right all wrongs? No, I bitch when I think someone offends me or tries to lump me in with something I'm not.
You want to clean up the conservasphere go do it yourself. When you post something that's going to offend 1/2 the people on the web, don't bitch when they come around and comment on it.
Now I end this conversation it's boring and you just keep going on about how I'm supposed to defend all people, it's ridiculous. I post on topics I agree with, not because George Bush or someone on the left tells me to.
If you're offended because you posted something I didn't agree with and I said so, then I don't know what to tell you. The fact you did a whole entry on my comments though seemed a little over the top and is why I responded in the first place.
We apparently agree to disagree on the meanings of posters, let's move on already it's Thanksgiving for christs sake.
Posted by: Digger on November 25, 2004 06:44 PM
You seem to be the only conservative who was offended by it. I don't see a lot of people jumping to your defense here either. Yeah I do get it. You think you should go around bitching about someone being mean, but only when being mean is to your way of thinking, not the other way around.
You are right, no need to continue this, because neither one of us is going to change our opinion. I just find your tact hypocritical and it is not the first time you have done it... Misrepresented something I said. Frankly I don't get it, since I have always respected you, and some of what you say in the post above Libelous, since you specifically accuse me of something I did not do. But whatever, I have better things to do.
Posted by: David Anderson on November 25, 2004 07:01 PM
You're right nobody's said anything about it, they just started a whole website against it.
Or do you take that just to be in good clean fun?
I find it ridiculous myself, but I also find the originals ridiculous as well.
Posted by: Digger on November 25, 2004 07:39 PM
Oh for heaven's sake. Oliver's "brand Dem" stuff is just ripe for parody. And parody = hate? This from the "Jesusland" bunch???
Irony is lost on some, eh?
David, Digger is well capable of defending himself, far be it from me or others who are reading and chuckling at your flailing to interfere.
I think the Brand-Dem stuff with John F. Kennedy quotes are just a hoot! Today's modern DNC would have marginalized JFK in heartbeat as a dreaded Xtian, just as they have done with the "too Jewish" Lieberman.
And I do find most contemporary American Left ideology WAY moonbatty!
I believe in a two party system where there is a viable alternative to the Republican party that can be deemed the loyal opposition ... a party that is pro-American anti-left mature and realistic.
Let me know when the Dem party qualifies.
Posted by: Darleen on November 26, 2004 11:05 AM
- Digger....while I may admire you're perserverence I still feel that engaging misguided truculent children in political debate is simply a waste of time...Spanking them however is thoruoghly enjoyable...I lack trackback but I linked you directly....
Posted by: Hunter on November 26, 2004 05:14 PM
- Oh and consider yourself relegated to the BlogRole of the clearly partisan right...Hell of a lot better than spending your life being wrong.....
Posted by: Hunter on November 26, 2004 07:26 PM